The following notes were posted on Prodigy between a former Catholic, a Catholic and others around 1994 (give or take a year or two):

     First, a bit of early history: During the Middle Ages, a woman by the name of Mecthild de Megdeburgh in Belgium began agitating as leader of a movement (primarily of women) to get themselves a goddess to worship. The women were uncomfortable with what they perceived to be an all-male religion. After threatening mass defections from the Church, the pope and clergy (fearful of the women's influence with their menfolk) acquiesced and elevated Mary. Mectil, whose writings have been preserved, actually referred to Mary as goddess. A compromise was struck with the Church, though, and while Mary was not to be referred to openly as a goddess, she was given the titles of Ishtar, the goddess of fertility (for example: Queen of Heaven, Mother of God and Lady of the World). Jeremiah talks about how offensive this is to God. "The children gather wood and the fathers kindle the fire and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven and pour out libations to other gods in order to spite Me." Jeremiah 7:18. (See also Jeremiah 44:17-25). The Bible is full of God's anger at seeing His people going after other gods and goddesses.

Subject: THE VIRGIN MARY AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

FROM THE FORMER CATHOLIC:
Following are the four Roman Catholic dogmas concerning Mary. A dogma is a teaching of the church which must be believed for salvation. It is a required belief.
  1. The Divine Motherhood of Mary: the Church teaches that Mary is the Mother of GOD-of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. They do not just believe that she was the mother of the Incarnation of the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity.
  2. The Perpetual Virginity: the church teaches that Mary remained a virgin all her life, and never had marital relations with her husband Joseph. They teach that Jesus had no brothers and sisters, though the Bible says that He did.
  3. The Immaculate Conception: the church teaches that Mary was conceived without original sin, and never in her life sinned (though Mary herself repudiates this in the Magnificat, the Catholics assert she was just being "humble"). This is a late development in the church, being defined as dogma by Pope Pius IX in 1854.
  4. The Bodily Assumption: the church teaches that Mary died, that her body did not corrupt, and that she was resurrected and taken bodily to heaven, where she now resides bodily. This is a very recent development, being defined as dogma by Pope Pius XII in 1950.
      On the basis of these dogmas, which have little and often no scriptural basis whatsoever, the church has developed further theses concerning Mary. Roman Catholic theses constitute a body of "pious belief," but belief in them is not binding.
  1. Mary is Co-Redemptrix with Christ: the church teaches that Mary actively cooperated with Jesus Christ in all phases of redemption.
  2. Mary is Mediatrix: this thesis is summed up in the words of Pope Leo XIII in OCTOBRI MENSE in 1891, "As no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so no one goes to Christ except through His Mother."
  3. Mary is Queen of Heaven: the Church teaches that Mary shares in royal dignity and RULING POWER by virtue of her unique relationship to Jesus Christ. See NOTE above about the title "Queen of Heaven."
  4. Mary is the Type of the Church: the church teaches that Mary appears as a personal manifestation of the idea of the church.
  5. Mary is Dispensatrix of All Graces: the church teaches that in the past Mary cooperated as the mediatrix of salvation, and now cooperates in her role of mediatrix by dispensing all graces to men.
      Mary is taught as not only having shared in the very work of redemption, but in some cases to have taken over entirely. As in "Dispensatrix of All Graces," it is Mary who not only dispenses grace to men, but in the words of Bernadine of Siena, "they are administered through her hands to whom she pleases, when she pleases, as she pleases, and as much as she pleases." Mary has effectively been defined as the "fourth" person of the Godhead, acting as such, being treated as such, and it is only a matter of time before she is officially recognized as such by stated dogma. To claim that Catholics do not worship Mary is to show an abysmal ignorance of Catholic teaching and writing on Mariology.

A ROMAN CATHOLIC ANSWERS:
  1. There is absolutely no evidence in scripture that Christ had any brothers or sisters. Although there are several references to "brethren" when referring to several of the apostles, these were second cousins of Christ. James and John , the sons of Zebedee were descended from siblings of Mary's parents Ann and Joaquin. There is certainly no evidence in any translation of the New Testament that Christ had any brothers. That is an interpretation which is clearly designed to cast doubt on the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
  2. Mary has NEVER been identified as the fourth person of the God head. Her position has always been lower than and subservient to the Blessed Trinity. Her role as Queen of Heaven has always been subservient to the will of the Father. However, because of His great love for Mary, He has never refused to grant Her what she asks.
  3. As a Roman Catholic I have a very great love and devotion to Mary, and pray to her regularly. I have never had the illusion that she is God. My devotion to her is solely as an intercessor, in order to obtain her assistance in assuring my salvation.
      With regard to the scriptural basis for Mary's role in the church I would mention the following:
  1. Christ's first miracle, the conversion of water into wine at the marriage feast of Cana, occurred at the request of Mary. This was the first manifestation of Mary's role as intercessor. It was very symbolic that Christ's first miracle occurred in this manner.
  2. At the time of His death on the cross, Christ said to Mary and John, who were watching at the foot of the cross "Woman, behold thy son, (referring to John), Son, behold thy mother (referring to Mary)." With these words Christ left his Blessed Mother behind to serve as the mother of the entire human race.
      Although many people try to denigrate the Catholic belief in Mary, for many others she has been a great source of comfort and conversion. Is it really so hard to understand why Christ, the most loving of all sons, wants his mother to be glorified by His church? And how could Mary, the most loving of all mothers, lead anyone who loves her to anyone but Christ himself? St. Louis De Montfort has taught that devotion to Mary is the surest way to find Christ.
      Your knowledge of Marian Theology as taught by the church is quite extensive. You lack only one element, and that is love for the Blessed Savior and his Blessed Mother, without whom Christ would never have been able to enter the world.

FORMER CATHOLIC RESPONDS:
Will answer your reply point by point.
  1. Get a Bible. There are multiple passages that speak of the brothers and sisters of Jesus. To say "there is certainly no evidence in any translation of the New Testament that Christ had any brothers" shows a deliberate or unintended ignorance of the Scriptures. For references to the brothers and sisters of Jesus, read Matthew 12:46 ff, Matthew 13, Mark 3: 31 ff, Luke 8:19 ff, John 2:12, John 7:3-10, James 15, and Galatians 1:19.
  2. I did not say that Mary had been "identified as the fourth person of the Godhead." I said that she has been effectively defined as such, meaning in practice. She is treated as such, and Mariology defines her as such, though not specifically, by attributing to her the attributes and works of God.
  3. We are never told in Scripture to pray to anyone but God the Father. Prayer to someone is worship, and prayer to anyone other than God is a violation of the first commandment.
  1. The wedding feast of Cana in no way implies that Mary can intercede for anyone. Especially since, between then and Calvary, she can't seem to even get in to see her own Son. She didn't seem to have much "pull" with Him after that. When Jesus was told that she and His brothers waited to see Him, He looked around at the faithful around Him and said that they were His mother, brothers, and sisters, and that anyone that did the will of His father was His mother, brother and sister. Nowhere in the New Testament are we told that Mary is able to intercede for us, or that we should go to her to intercede for us with God. In fact, that role is the role of Jesus Christ and the holy Spirit.
  2. Where in John 19 does it say that Mary became the mother of the "entire human race?" John understood quite clearly what Jesus said, for it says that from that hour he took her to his own home. He was to look after her after the death of Jesus, pure and simple. Once again, there is nowhere in Scripture that such an idea (Mary being mother of the human race; actually, Eve has that distinction) is taught or supported.
  3. Where did Jesus ever say that He wants "His mother to be glorified by His church?" When a woman in Luke 11 cried out to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bare you and the breasts which nourished you," He answered, "Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it." Remember also that He said that "whoever does the will of my Father, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Quite the contrary of wanting the church to glorify His mother, He teaches that she is not to be treated any differently than any faithful follower.
      How do you know that I lack love for the Blessed Savior, or for His mother? I do indeed love Jesus, and love His mother as well. I simply do not elevate her beyond her Scriptural place. As for Jesus not being able to enter the world without Mary, that is totally absurd. God can do anything. Redemption did not hang in the balance awaiting the answer of a little Jewish girl to God. He could have accomplished His purpose with another girl, or in another way. To say that Jesus could not have entered the world without Mary is to attribute the work of redemption to her, and not to the Lord Jesus Christ.

COMMENTS FROM ANOTHER CHRISTIAN:
God has told us in his commandments "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me." To pray to a human being who has passed away automatically assumes they have god-like powers to be able respond to your prayers from the hereafter. Only God-Jesus-the Holy Spirit can hear your prayers and intervene in your life. It's really stretching it to say that because Christ asked John to take care of his mother (that was customary in those days), she is somehow the mother of the human race. The same goes for the marriage feast of Cana. You have to do a lot more than read between the lines to come up with Mary being pointed to as an intercessor for humanity because she asked for Jesus's help. You really have to make up a story! The Bible is very clear that it is through Jesus that we obtain forgiveness of sins and through Jesus only! Please read John 14:6 "Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by Me." (emphasis mine) Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them." You see only Jesus is our intercessor. This is not a plan created by a certain religion ....this is God's plan! And it is very clearly stated in the Bible. (Catholic or Protestant Bible) Hebrews 4:14-16: "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." We don't need a third party to get to Jesus so that we can get to God. God provided a way to him, so that sinful man could approach a pure and sinless God....it's Jesus and only Jesus! Why? Because only Jesus (God) could pay the penalty for our sins, the sins of all human beings in the whole world. The Bible says all have sinned and fallen short (even Mary). All that he asks is that we accept Jesus as our Savior and when we do God looks down from heaven and sees us washed in the precious blood of his Son and he doesn't see a sinful human being but a child of his kingdom. To refuse God's plan so clearly laid out in the Bible, to add to it by saying we need another intercessor is risky business. Rather than blindly follow church doctrine, I strongly urge you to get into a Bible study....where just the Bible is studied for what it says. Believe me, I'm not putting you down or your religion....I married a Catholic (ex-Catholic now) and have had many Catholic friends. I have found more than once that when a Catholic finds out what the Bible has to say, more than one contradiction with church doctrine is found. I strongly urge you to read your Bible.

FROM THE FORMER CATHOLIC:
      The Greek has a word for "cousin," and indeed, Luke himself used it to refer to Mary as the cousin of Elizabeth in Luke 1. The word is "suggenes." If the "brethren" and "sistern" (that's a little joke, guys) were indeed cousins, and not brothers and sisters, then they would have used "suggenes" and not "adelphe" or "adelphos." And it is certainly odd that the scholars through the ages have consistently translated the words "adelphe and adelphos" as brothers and sisters, and not cousins. Why??? Because the word, coming from the root word, "delphus," meaning "womb" means brother! As I said, the word "suggenes" is used for cousin-it means "cousin, relative, or kin."
      Again, try R-E-A-D-I-N-G. I did not say that "a writer in Marian theology" has ever "made the statement that Mary is the fourth person of the Godhead." I said, "she has been effectively defined as such, meaning in practice." And yes, this is my interpretation of the writings in Mariology of Catholic authors and scholars. But not mine alone. In fact Andrew Greeley, a Catholic priest, comes to much the same conclusion in his book, "The Mary Myth," and sees it as a perfectly normal and good development in theology and Mariology.
      You say, "no Catholic has ever elevated Mary to the same level of authority as God." My dear friend, the Church itself has done that, in defining Mary as Mediatrix, Co-Redemptrix, and Dispensatrix of all Graces. They have ascribed to her the work of redemption and mediation between God and men. They have ascribed to her the work of the Lord Jesus Christ in redeeming men and dispensing the grace of God to them. And indeed, they elevate her above God Himself. Bernadine of Siena wrote, "The blessed Virgin could do more concerning God than God could do concerning himself."
      I have no idea what you think. But I do have quite a good idea of what the Catholic Church thinks of Mary, having read extensively in the Roman Catholic writings on Mariology.
      Will now share some further things from Roman Catholic authors on Mariology. Here are a few selections from Alfonso de Ligorio in "The Glories of Mary," written in the mid eighteenth century. This book was said by Pius VII and Leo XII to be "without error." Pius VII declared the book to be "saturated by divine erudition," and when Ligorio died, asked that three of his fingers be sent to him, saying, "Let come to Rome those fingers which wrote in such a wonderful way the glories of Mary." Alfonso, speaking of Mary, writes, "Yes, Mary is omnipotent...because according to all law the king and the queen enjoy equal privileges; consequently, having the Son and the Mother the same authority, the Mother is omnipotent on account of her Son's omnipotence." He continues, "If the Mother and the Son have the same power, then Jesus Christ, who is omnipotent, has made Mary omnipotent; but with this difference: Jesus Christ is omnipotent by nature and Mary is omnipotent by grace, in the sense that the Son does not deny anything that she asks from Him." Ligorio, praised for his divine insight into the "glories of Mary," makes her equal to God, attributing a quality of divinity to her, omnipotence. This book, by the way, has the official sanction of the Roman Catholic Church, being published with the nihil obstat and imprimatur. Following are some titles which Ligori attributes to Mary:
 1. the only-begotten daughter of the Father
 2. the first-born daughter of the Father
 3. the wife of the Holy Spirit
 4. the wife of the Verb
  5. the wife of the Almighty One
 6. the queen of Heaven
 7. the Door of Heaven
 8. the co-operator in the work of our Redemption
 9. the only Hope of Sinners
 10. the Treasurer of all Graces
 11. the Dispensatrix of all Graces
 12. the Mediatrix of angels and men
 13. the Reconciler of all men
 14. Our Salvation
Ligori also says that the very name of Mary is "divine and is full of divine sweetness." He says also, "Actually, as Pharaoh had given Joseph absolute authority over all Egypt and to those who requested his favor he said, 'Go to Joseph,' so it is God's work; to those asking from Him some mercy, He says, 'Go to Mary." And, "In Judea, victories were obtained by means of the ark. It was in this way that Moses triumphed over his enemies...It is well known the Ark of the Covenant was a figure of Mary...the mercy seat is Mary, from it the Lord speaks to men, and through it He grants forgiveness and other mercies." (Emphases mine)
      Now, I think this will come as some surprise to poor Jesus and the Holy Spirit, who evidently have been victims of some hostile takeover in heaven, with Mary now performing their works...I have lots more where this came from, guys. You see, it is difficult to get someone to buy "we don't worship Mary" if they have access to your very own scholars and writers.

FROM ANOTHER CHRISTIAN:
      Terry, just read your post and wanted to suggest one correction. The catholic church does not teach that Mary died. Death is the punishment for sin, and since they believe she did not sin, they believe she did not die. Instead, the teaching is that she fell asleep and then was assumed into heaven. The official site of this falling asleep is now a Benedictine monastery in Jerusalem and the name of the monastery is The Dormition. Dormition is based on the Latin word which means to fall asleep. I'm not affirming or denying this teaching, simply clarifying one point of error in your presentation.
      Also, the church does not teach that she was the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit, but only of the Son, Jesus Christ. Since he is God, she is called the Mother of God, but that does not mean God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Hope this helps in your presentation. I'm not a catholic, but I have studied Roman Catholic theology. I've also spent a lot of time talking to catholic monks, nuns, and priests.
      While I'm not the fount of all wisdom and knowledge in this particular subject, I do know whereof I speak.

FORMER CATHOLIC RESPONDS:
      Jason, sorry, but you are wrong on this one. Actually, this is a point that has not been officially defined. Roman Catholic scholars disagree on this point, some denying that she died, and others arguing that she died, her body did not corrupt, and she was raised from the dead. The question is still open among Mariologists. You might try, "The Testimony of the Patristic Age Concerning Mary's Death," by Walter J. Burghardt, Newman Press, 1957.
      As for the divine motherhood, I have argued this point with many Catholics, and they do indeed for the most part believe her to be the Mother of God, of the Godhead, of all three persons of the Trinity, saying that they cannot be separated. When I say, no, she was only the mother of the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity, they argue the point with me. I quote from "Protestants, Catholics, and Mary," by Stephen Benko, "But the Word is in union with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and this is the relationship which is described as the hypostatic union. If the Word entered into a union with Mary, this means that Mary was raised into the hypostatic order and that the divine substance of the Word was infused into her by the Father himself, thereby effecting a unique relationship of Mary not only with the Word but also with the Father. Furthermore, since the conception was by the Holy Spirit, Mary's relationship with all three persons of the Trinity is established. Interpreted in this sense, then, the dogma of divine motherhood elevates Mary above every created being, including angels and all heavenly creatures. 'She is in fact, in a category all her own.' (Mariology by M. J. Scheeben)"
      There is really much more to these dogmas than most Catholics even realize.
-Terry

THE FOLLOWING IS FROM A ROMAN CATHOLIC WHICH SHOWS THE EXTENT OF THE DANGER OF THESE UNBIBLICAL "DOCTRINES:"
      I've been reading these notes here, and I felt I must reply to you. I have a few lines from a book entitled, "Please Come Back To Me And My Son":.."these are apocalyptic times, we are witnessing the intercession of the Virgin Mary, Queen of Heaven and Star of the Sea, the true beacon for all Christians...It is part of God's plan to have the Woman clothed in the Sun appear throughout the world (the apparitions) to offer His people a safe haven in Her Immaculate Heart, from the fury of the ferocious storm now threatening to totally engulf them. And they are also confident that Mary's Immaculate Heart will finally triumph and give a period of great peace and harmony in the world, but only after great tribulations have been experienced, and the world has been cleansed. The basic messages received through visionaries worldwide at present times are broadly similar...There is, they say, an urgent call for a change of heart, and for repentance and personal spiritual renewal. People are being asked to turn back to God without delay, and God is using [Marian] apparitions and locutions because other means have failed, and He has warned us, repeatedly, that the times of His mercy are coming to an end and the times of His justice are commencing...."

RESPONSE FROM NON-CATHOLIC:
      Jesus anticipated the tragic heretical doctrine of Mariology that would eventually plague some churches. Mary was a very spiritual person, and that is what makes her veneration such a tragedy. Jesus had to die for Mary's sins, too. Jesus was concerned about the inordinate preoccupation with Mary that would come: Luke 11:27-28 "And it came about while He (Jesus) said these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice, and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts at which You nursed." But He (Jesus) said , "ON THE CONTRARY, blessed are those who hear the word of GOD , and observe it." Jesus died for us so that we would pursue a personal relationship with Him, not Mary.

IN CLOSING, A RESPONSE TO THE CATHOLICS:
Concerning the "woman clothed in the sun of Revelation 12:1, as mentioned by the Catholic lady, here is a quote from the Jewish New Testament Commentary:
      Rev. 12:1. "The woman is not Miryam (Mary), Yeshua's (Jesus's) mother, but Israel, in its normal sense, the Jewish people, because the imagery is from Isaiah 66:7-10 (compare with Isaiah 26:17, Micah 4:10). Because of verse 17, this cannot be the "extended Israel" concept which includes Gentile Christians. Although Israel is on earth, Yochanan (John) sees her in heaven, symbolizing the fact that God protects and preserves the Jews; this is made more explicit at verses 6, 13-16. Moreover, Mikha'el (Michael) is Israel's angelic protector (v.7). There is an obvious resemblance between the woman and heavenly Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26, Messianic Jews (Hebrews) 12:22-24)." This is the understanding of the majority of Bible scholars, particularly those with an understanding of the Jewish background, idioms, culture and understandings of the times in which the Bible was written. Contrary to the beliefs held by many Catholics, the apostle John was Jewish; literally a Messianic Jew. He was never a "Gentile Christian." While these verses concern Messiah's birth, it is from the point of view of Israel giving birth to (or producing) the Messiah. This a major theme throughout the Bible and the reason why the Jews were the "chosen people:" chosen to be the vessel though which God's Word and His Messiah would come to the peoples of the earth. Mary, while most blessed of woman, was, in the final analysis, only the human vehicle through which the Messiah came.
      The Catholic lady's claim that the world will be won to the immaculate heart of Mary (rather than to Jesus) and bring about "a period of great peace...." shows a great ignorance of the Bible. Yes, there will be a time of great tribulation (and soon), but it will end in the triumphant return of Christ (the Second Coming), not by the world being won to Mary's heart, immaculate or otherwise. Mary is never even mentioned in the Bible in connection with any of the end time events and their culmination. Also, the "prophecies" of Our Lady of Fatima never came to pass. The Iron Curtain did fall, but not through the auspices of Mary (the apparition claimed that Russia would be freed from the Communists when the Russians accepted salvation through her).
      Her claim that God is using apparitions of Mary "because other means have failed" shows no concept of what is going on today in the field of evangelism. People are coming to God, but they are coming to Jesus, not Mary. Unfortunately, there are also many who are embracing other forms of religion, from New Age to Islam and everything in-between.

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